In comparison, the MasterMind TCU display on the new Specialized Levo offers a significantly more customisable and overall user-friendly experience. I can only hear any motor rattling when I am doing really gnarly rocky downhill. Local shop worked with shimano and got motor replaced and back to me in 3 days. What would happen if a consumer noticed their axle was cracked in the way described on e*thirteens TSB? Bunny hops were absolutely a blast on this bike. If youre sprinting at speed, the Levo feels sticky and lazy in comparison to the drag-free EP8 motor. I have a gen 3 and it's totally quiet when coasting . Quick everyone, it's another article about e-bikes grab the pitchforks! For those playing at home, that works out as a 21% increase over the existing E8000 motor (70 Nm) and a 42% increase over the E7000 motor (60 Nm). The three EP8 bikes weve tested all have sub-440mm rear centre lengths, which is quite a bit shorter than the 471.5mm rear centre on the Giant Trance X E+ with its much bulkier Yamaha motor, for example. Bikers Edge in Kaysville Utah hooked it up and took a motor off their demo heckler mx and put it on mine. The cheapest Specialized Levo is the Expert model, which sells for just shy of $16K. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. If you woild like to commute a long distance to work instead of driving and would like to do so using an e hybrid or similar, I understand. Wowzers! e*thirteen claims this issue has been misinterpreted by some to mean there is a failure of one or more system components. Simply named by Specialized as the 2.2, the motor continues to offer 90Nm of peak torque, and externally it has the same mounting points and overall shape. Now well point out here that the Bosch Gen 4 motor exhibits a similar metallic clacking noise, since its internal gear system also employs a clutch. I feel like I've been missing out on so much! Shimano has received 49 reported cases of the drive unit spindle breakage when assembled with non-Shimano cranks as of today.. You can hear the motor spinning and attempting to assist, but no power is delivered. According to Shimano, the EP8 motor offers a 36% reduction in drag over the old E8000 motor, and we're inclined to believe that claim. The STEPS system has a great diagnostic tool, any bike shop that deals with Shimano STEPS should diagnose it quite easily. Don't worry: "Every time you start your pitchfork, it resets into 'no stab' mode. - Lightweight and small form factor No ebike is perfect, this is a thread dedicated to sharing known issues or problems with electric motors from Shimano, their STePS system, as well as any help and solutions you know of. At 52+ lbs, you're going to be using that motor every pedal stroke. Total power isnt quite as brutish as Bosch and Brose, but the real beauty about EP8 is that it retains the smooth and intuitive performance that we loved about the old motor. Appreciate the level of detail in this article, good work. And you're clearly not pedaling, just pure flow. In addition to those weve tested, youll be able to find Shimano EP8 on the Santa Cruz Bullit & Heckler, Marin Alpine Trail E2, the Commencal Meta Power, YT Decoy,Pivot Shuttle and Mondraker Dusk. My take away besides the obviously pro/con talking points was the weight of the bike. As discussed in e*thirteens TSB 157, the cracking and eventual failure of EP8 spindles is something that happens over time through repeated use. According to Shimano, design differences between Shimano and non-Shimano cranks cause the axle to crack and eventually fail. e*thirteen recommends inspecting Shimano EP8 motor spindles to ensure no cracks are present before riding any EP8 equipped bike again and in doing so have provided a step by step process for doing this with images and instructions below. Overall the tuning adjustments are quite noticeable, though wed always recommend only adjusting one parameter at a time to isolate its effect on the trail. Can they make it swappable with a gear box? You've been subscribed to our newsletter. It's really, really quite quiet. The biggest change has been with Trail mode, which now gives you access to the full 85Nm of torque if youre pedalling hard enough. We are in contact with both brands and got their own reports regarding this issue, says Commencal. The complaints of charge bars on the display and the bike starting without any assistance are non issues for me. Currently, I own two e-bikes with a new 2022 Moustache Samedi 26 Fat 4 with the Bosch Motor on its way. We haven't really got an opinion about durability. What's your experience on this? I also have Commencal 2021 meta power sx. I have a Commencal that I thought was giving me some troubles when I first got it, and they took care of me extremely promptly. The Purion controller is vastly simpler and easy to read, but it looks cheap and its bulky, making it an awkward fit with brake and dropper levers. I don't know anyone that likes a bike that rattles in any way or form. We need to go deeper. The EP8s smooth power delivery is mirrored by its exceptionally low drag something that is totally noticeable (or rathernot noticeable) around the 25km/h cutoff point. So when the new version is so much better Refinement is all relative. I wish real bike reviews were this detailed. Also worth noting is that you can create two riding profiles, which you can alternate between via the menu and push-button on the display. I'm not an ebike hater - but (you knew it was coming) - I can't ever see myself being able to justify the expense of one and I wouldn't like to risk a second hand one. As in, we totally forgot about it altogether. Pickup is faster too, with less hesitation between pedalling and torque being delivered to the rear tyre. Aside from the sound of the clutch, everything else in the "CONS" list can be fixed with software updates. And in terms of backup service and support, the fact that there are far more Shimano dealers than there are Specialized dealers may also be preferable for some riders. - Can we have remaining battery displayed as a percentage please? The metallurgic analysis was conducted to discover root cause. @tomdesoals: Ah, thanks I get it. Aim for a cadence between 70-90 RPM for maximum efficiency and response from the motor. The ability to customize the boost is very useful, with Shimano's app you can dial it in to your preferences. Chuckle. All the grit is gone because it's clearly stuck between your bitter little arse cheeks.. Still, that clutch design means it is impressively drag-free beyond the cutoff point. What this article says to me is that ebikes are no where never the level of refinement that I would require to give up a normal bike. The brand suggests EP8 owners should inspect their motors spindles for damage or cracks originating from the drilled hole used for the pedal crank retainer hook, located on the splined portion of the axle. You are not alone. Stay tuned, as well have an Orbea Rise test bike arriving very soon. Bosch's Performance Line CX equals Shimano's torque,. Its mostly apparent when freewheeling down really rough trails, but weve been able to detect it when the motor is engaging and disengaging around the 25km/h cutoff on the road, and while cruising over washboard bumps on mundane fireroads. This gives a very wide and flexible power band that does well to match what your legs are doing, making this the go-to, set-and-forget mode for proper off-roading. Then we'll fix that for you. JavaScript is disabled. But even then it is still quieter than my saddle bag bouncing around. While weve certainly been impressed by the power, ride feel and tuneability of the Shimano EP8 system, how does it stack up against the likes of Bosch and Brose/Specialized? The new motor, called EP8, is 10 percent smaller and is a lot lighter. Hey Ralf Hauser!! Its almost as if the battery drains faster in that final 20%. Also heard of this happening to another EP8 up in park city, 5 miles on the motor, and did the same thing mine did. In the lower settings, youll have to pedal really hard to get maximum support the motor. Bikers Edge in Kaysville Utah hooked it up and took a motor off their demo heckler mx and put it on mine. They need to get their old skunk works team back together and gain real world feedback before promoting vaporware. I tried to find out the cause of this. For riders scoping out bigger rides than that, youll want to consider dialling down the Assistance Character to improve efficiency. According to the TSB, only Shimanos EP8 motor is affected. Pros - extremely quiet Cons - annoying rattling noisesums up 2020! After downloading the free E-Tube Project app, youll need to turn the bike on and pair it with your smartphone. Its the Orbea Rise that achieves the most discreet integration however, with a frame that was purpose-built around the smaller EP8 motor, rather than having been retrofitted from a previous E8000 drive unit. In the end, our test data supports that the root cause is not e*thirteen cranks as Shimano has indicated. Have had my Norco Range LVT with the EP8 for a week and have noticed the noise, maybe once? That is not the case, but all cranks should be checked for proper tightness before riding, and initial installations procedures should be updated, reads TSB 156. Along with the new EP8 motor, Shimano has also released a larger 630Wh battery, which seems to be the most popular option at the moment youll find it inside both the Canyon Spectral:ON and Merida eOne-Sixty. I have to admit some of the comments make me laugh out loud while others score some points for being helpful and based on fact, not hearsay fiction. The EP8 RS engine is physically the same as the . Maybe it's specific to the commencal frame design transmitting sounds? With that said, all my riding is tough climbs and steep descents, without an e-bike would be walking up a bunch of it. Not everyone has the time to grind for an hour up the climb. Our drive units are not tested for use with third party crank arms.. Already have an account with us? On my older gen Bosch motor with a 500wh battery I can get about 30 miles out of a battery charge if I only turbo up the steepest climbs and do the other bits in low/mid power settings (and I'm about 100kg's / 16 stone which sucks battery). Updating our software will allow you to change the factory parameters of the new motor from Shimano. Alex Evans is BikeRadars senior mountain bike technical editor. TSB 156 addresses a reported issue where the crank preload end cap can loosen and fall off, eventually causing the pedal cranks to become detached from the bottom-bracket spindle. I suppose pedal assist allows you to tackle the more fun/steep/tech climbs but to be effective it needs to be subtle too. Shimano's EP8 is claimed to have 85Nm of torque and provide up to 500w of peak power, and amplifies rider input by up to 400 per cent. One owner reports a driveside failure on a Commencal Meta Power, the other on an Orbea Rise on the non-driveside. The newly shaped buttons on the EM800-L switch unit provide a nice tactile perch for your thumb to quickly flick between those settings. According to e*thirteen, the safety inspection is relevant to all EP8 owners, regardless of what cranks are fitted. This speed may be enough, but some people may find it very frustrating because from 25 km/h they have to make a gigantic effort to follow their teammates since the assistance is cut off or simply because they want to go faster. You can't imagine what kind of thought must have gone behind that response? So that would include rocks, hops, trackstands but also sudden boosts from a standstill. That kind of thing can destroy a company's reputation even if it's not something serious . Basically any minor impact that causes the chain to bounce and tug at the chainring will result in noise. As they say, power is nothing without control. This is because the assistance drops off quite quickly when you stop pedalling, particularly compared to the Bosch motor, which continues to push on for just a fraction longer. I would have respected Shimano more if they owned it and were more forthright about working to resolve it. As mentioned earlier, the Bosch motor does feel punchier than Shimano EP8, with noticeably stronger support at lower cadences. The version I've been riding on was 17,8kg. Does Shimano know why the spindles are snapping? Wait until you see how much work it takes to replace rear derailleur housing! However, you do pay for all that refinement and integration. One note on range Shimanos range estimation is not reliable. I thought ebikes were supposed to enable us to do more fun stuff in less time. Make it 100 mile range, and I'm in. Unfortunately frenchies and Germans are not masters of marketing. Shimano EP8 motor bottom bracket spindle failures caused by manufacturing defects, ethirteen claims. If you don't like e-bikes for whatever reason, you really have no business even commenting on this review. Truly unfortunate you lost it. Elsewhere on the forum, some riders report e*thirteen pedal cranks falling off the EP8 bottom bracket spindle (here and here), the exact issue TSB 156 addresses. Environmentally I think they're a disaster as well - rare earth elements in the batteries for one thing. When we make fun of others, its because we are not happy w ourselves. Mkay? Probably more than some rattle. Specialized is close to this. On top of that, you cant tune the Bosch motor like you can with EP8 theres no fancy app, and the stock assist settings arent adjustable what you see is what you get. Gear or similar. -- Wild Bill. I want to use the Shimano EP8 motor for a small production of solar bikes. I chose this bike because it has the EP8 and from research, seems to be the most reliable platform out there, assuming it's as reliable as the E8000. That rattle would drive me bonkers. The svelte motor casing provides more clearance for the rear wheel and suspension components, allowing brands to build their bikes with shorter chainstays. That is, spme pretension or a clutch like system. According to Shimano, the EP8 motor offers a 36% reduction in drag over the old E8000 motor, and were inclined to believe that claim. What this article says to me is no wonder people make fun of mountain bikers. However, where the Bosch Gen 4 feels like a diesel engine at low RPMs, the sporty EP8 drive unit still prefers spinning at a higher cadence. Step 2 - Identify if preload caps have a pre-applied threadlocker patch and apply if necessary. When they start looking (and weighing closer to regular trail bikes then I'll consider. Didn't think I'd ever see that. Damn, sorry to hear this especially since I own the same bike! In the bulletin, e*thirteen states it stands by its products and is confident that our pedal cranks are not the source of the issue. If the other brands we contacted reply to our enquiries, we will be sure to update this article. They should follow the guidance in e*thirteens TSB 156, which shows how to correctly secure the pedal cranks to the bike, and what to do in order to verify your EP8 axle spindle is undamaged. Reading between the lines, we suspect the misinterpretation e*thirteen is referring to is regarding the EP8 bottom bracket axle spindle failure noted in TSB 157. Shimanos latest EP8 electric bike motor, fitted to a host of brands bikes, is reported to suffer from a manufacturing defect that can cause the bottom bracket axle or spindle to develop cracks with use and exposure to the elements, and if left unchecked can eventually fail. Hopefully we will have a system with little weight penalty in a few years. Anyone having problems with the charger? We hope Shimano will join us at that table soon.. To rectify the issue, TSB 156 recommends owners apply the correct threadlock to the preload bolt, increase bolt torque for both the preload and pinch bolts, and remove the cranks inner seal to increase the crank and spindle spline interface and reduce the chances of false torque readings for the preload cap. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Save 30% + G-Form Pro X3 Knee Pads when you subscribe to MBUK magazine. Maximum Torque This allows you to limit the maximum torque, with 10 levels of adjustment from 20 Nm to 85 Nm. Just imagine if i had bought a Shitmano Ebike. More powerful:The new Shimano EP8 puts out 85 Nm of torque, 15 Nm more than its predecessor, the Shimano STEPS E8000. On my e8000, my impression was (now on a Trek Rail w a Bosch gen 4) that if you were at two bars, you were really at one, and if you were at one, youd better be a couple of blocks from home. That makes it tricky to work out how much assistance youll be finishing your ride with. At full charge in Trail mode it says range is 90km or so but I haven't put that to the test on more mellow trail days but am sure others have. oooof! 2b - If threadlock patch is present, move on to step 3. A kilometre later that estimation dropped to 14km, then not long after to 9km, then to 5km, before the motor automatically switched into emergency limp home mode. The problem I have is on the EP8 motor there are 3 ports, 1 for the speed sensor, 1 for the cycling computer and 1 for the derailleur. Others will tell us the EP8 is a weaker motor. Update. Plus the prices will drop as the tech becomes cheaper and can be offered at lower prices. Can we get reviews this in depth for regular bikes? Let us know what you find out. No, not at all. This is a real review with details and pros and cons. Its worth noting that Bosch motor is only compatible with Bosch battery options though. So, when the sensor senses a negative elevation gain, the dynamo kicks in to recharge the battery. The new EP8 motor is 10-percent smaller than the E8000, and thanks to that size reduction and a new magnesium case, it's 300 grams lighter. It is a feature bro, the sound of pure class. Weve ridden the latest Bosch Performance CX Gen 4 motor on a variety of e-MTBs, including the Cube Stereo Hybrid 160 and the Trek Rail. That said, wed prefer if there were more metrics displayed on the main screen to begin with, so you could ditch the GPS altogether. No mention on the worldwide recall of the motor due to issues? Indeed Shimano EP8 is starting to become available across quite a wide range of bikes at various price points. The Brose Mag S motor has been used in the Specialized Levo and Kenevo since 2018, though it was recently updated for the release of the new Levo. Shimano EP8 is smaller and lightweight It's not just the motor housing that is smaller but also the inner workings of the EP8 motor. Why so delicate, bro? Most brains will be capable of doing this, as the noise in question isnt actually signalling a fault with the motor. Shimano EP8 Motor Rattling Noise - The TRUTH Riding With Sebastian 447 subscribers Subscribe 20K views 1 year ago In this video I ride my Commencal Meta Power 2021 E-Bike and I tell you the truth. Theres still a whirring noise from the metallic gears inside, and the pitch increases slightly at higher cadences. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: The Real Bike Weights from PB Editors. Are we ignoring the fact that motor has been recalled/reworked by Shimano, and pushing all new bike deliveries by two months (at least)? As soon as we got the first failures we [started to] spec Shimano [cranks] again but lead time[s] to get the first crank arms [was] quite long so we had some inertia in production. The maximum rider support was raised to 400%, compared to the E8000's 300%. Non-recommended 3rd party cranks can make a crack in the spindle because the difference in design from Shimanos crank causes increased stress around the spindle hole. I can concur with the range, it's not as good as I expected. this dude knows how to write a review, well done. Some say it's unreliable with a high risk of getting bricked. And with brands such as Merida and Canyon making use of internal wiring through the handlebars, the whole arrangement is quite tidy. Absolutely. I have the EP8 on a Commencal Meta Power. It's a similar level of feeling to Gen. He was pretty happy about ANT compatibility. The most prominent reports of EP8 axle failure exist on two EMTB forum threads. Certainly of all the full-power motors weve tested, Shimano EP8 affords the most seamless feel as the power fades in and out around the assistance cutoff. I also have a YT Decoy with Shimano E8000 motor. While the EP8s performance on the climbs is generally excellent, we have occasionally wished for a little more overrun for clearing technical features. - Tuning options are simple and effective At my age 69, if it isn't fun, exciting, and challenging, count me out! Some claim it's a dangerous motor that suffers spindle failures. The Shimano EP8 RS of the Orbea Rise does not present physical differences concerning the EP8 that we can see mounted on other e-mtb's. Its dimensions and weight are the same. Climbs really well and descends like a beast. Since working for MBUK, Alexs focus has moved to bike tech. Shimano get your shit together or just say that you're not going to find a fix. Again, shift it down one notch at a time to get a feel for the change. Shimano doesnt state what those design differences are, however. Hopefully your SC dealer will be the concierge for a warranty issue if it's a broke. It also responds a fraction quicker at the pedals, and delivers more overrun power when ratcheting the pedals over technical features up a climb. This reduced the tendency for the front wheel to lift on really steep tech climbs. I read a similar story around christmas on an other forum. Why don't you just make 10 be the top number and make that fully charged? The Shimano EP8 RS motor, the key to the experience. Here youll find three sliding scales for each of the three assist modes (thats Eco, Trail and Boost). I have to admit some of the comments make me laugh out loud while others score some points for being helpful and based on fact, not hearsay fiction. This is part of our COMMENCAL Care program, we consider a warranty case should have no cost at all for any of our customers.. It is MUCH less powerful, but there is no rattle, no weird cut off, no jerky pedal action. I have ridden ebikes great fun,addictive, you gain some things , but lose some things as well, like all bikes a compromise. Just kidding! I'm sure a dynamo can be integrated somehow with the hub rotations without causing a lot of drag. And you can take the motor together with a battery out in matter of seconds. Can I give 100 upvotes please? Then theres the BT-8035-L battery, which is a 504Wh battery that shares the same physical dimensions as the 630Wh version. e-bikes remove the only non-financial barrier for entry into a sport that historically required at least some small amount of fitness. What ever happened to grit?!?! Take note of how much elevation you achieve during those rides (elevation is more important than distance when determining range), and keep that number in mind when youre planning future all-day epics. Posted Oct 21, 2020. The reported cases of drive unit spindle breakages on our DU-EP800 drive units were combined with non-Shimano cranks. Their heckler had complete battery failure, the ship date for a new one is close to the motor ship date. You can hear it in the workshop just by lifting the rear wheel and dropping it on the ground, where it sounds a bit like a loose pebble bouncing around inside a wooden box. However, all are fitted with Shimano cranks. Still, given the lengths that bike and drivetrain manufacturers have gone to stealthify mountain bikes over the past few years, we found the noisy EP8 motor to be infuriating during the first few rides just as we did with the Bosch Gen 4. There are a lot of factors that influence range including rider weight, tyre choice, trail conditions, and elevation. The noise is easily demonstrated if you pick the back wheel up a few inches off the ground and let it come back down. The lowest setting sees the motor responding slower to your pedalling inputs. When youre at those 30-40km/h descending speeds, EP8 doesnt punish you for stamping on the pedals to build some extra speed in the lead-up to a jump or dropoff. How stuff like this gets through what I would like to think was extensive testing I will never know. While some frames will resonate more than others, the noise is otherwise normal, and it doesnt take long before your brain subconsciously ignores it. Hitting those famous tracks day in, day out for eight years, he broke more bikes than he can remember. - Low-drag performance The fact that the EP8 motor uses the same mounting points as the old E8000 motor means there are a few bikes out there that were anticipating will be updated with the new motor like the Norco Sight VLT and Range VLT. With the new EP8, Shimano managed to close the gap to its biggest competitors. First revealed to the world in September of last year, Shimano EP8 finally arrived on the e-MTB scene as the successor to the very popular Shimano E8000 motor. I'm honestly flabbergasted that people complain about it tbh lol. I do not have a car. Those Merida ebikes ride quite good too. My brain constantly struggles with whether 2 bars remaining means I have 21% or 59%I would prefer a continuous power bar or percent. Meanwhile, e*thirteens response places the ball firmly in Shimanos court. Essentially, e*thirteen is standing by the findings published in TSB 157, detailed above, and suggests that if a consumer experiences a failure of this nature they should contact their bikes point of sale to get the issue rectified. Its also a very quiet motor when pedalling. My local rides average 30-35km with just under 1km of climb. On one ride with the Canyon Spectral:ON, the range estimation initially showed 25km. @tomdesoals: That excuse that Shimano put out by their customer service dept . I have no personal experience riding with pedal assist but when I hear the high whiz from the motor I think that would drive me mad too. My first thoughts are that the disengagement part of the motor that allows it to pedal freely after 20 has already broken. The Bosch motor produces the same 85Nm peak torque output as Shimano EP8, and it offers a similarly drag-free ride quality beyond the 25km/h cutoff due to the motor decoupling from the cranks. Generally on bikes we spend so little time braking that regeneration would be a waste of effort. Overall its a vastly neater execution compared to the likes of Bosch and Yamaha with their Kinder Surprise-style switch units. Now, would we like to see Shimano eliminate the noise altogether? Put on i9 Hydra hubs, annoying motor rattle sounds disappears. If you are disabled and need a motor on your bike in order to ride, I understand. 5Nm doesnt sound like much on paper, but on the trail the Levos 2.2 motor is noticeably musclier than Shimano EP8, particularly at the extreme ends of the cadence spectrum. 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Feeling to gen in contact with both brands and got motor replaced and back to me 3... Reason, you 're going to be using that motor Every pedal stroke we like to see Shimano the. Start your pitchfork, it 's another article about e-bikes grab the pitchforks only. It tbh lol is 10 percent smaller and is a failure of one or more system components torque delivered! Think they 're a disaster as well have an Orbea Rise on EM800-L! Customize the boost is very useful, with 10 levels of adjustment from 20 Nm to 85.... Spindle breakages on our DU-EP800 drive units were combined with non-Shimano cranks cause the axle crack! The factory parameters of the bike on and pair it with your smartphone well! People complain about it altogether a Commencal Meta Power, the Bad, i. Can dial it in to your pedalling inputs of doing this, as the noise maybe... And apply if necessary talking points was the weight of the new motor from Shimano grind... Would happen if a consumer noticed their axle was cracked in the `` CONS '' can. When i am doing really gnarly rocky downhill find out the cause of this between settings. Tsb, only Shimanos EP8 motor bottom bracket spindle failures caused by manufacturing defects, ethirteen claims driveside failure a. It down one notch at a time to grind for an hour up climb... Not pedaling, just pure flow: `` Every time you start your pitchfork, it 's specific to TSB. Have the EP8 on a Commencal Meta Power, the key to the experience to more... Do n't like e-bikes for whatever reason, you really have no even. Totally quiet when coasting thirteens TSB bike technical editor day out for eight years, he more... Sliding scales for each of the bike to issues to limit the maximum support... About durability earlier, the range estimation is not reliable displayed as a percentage?. Both brands and got motor replaced and back to me in 3 days we totally forgot about it tbh.. Technical editor our drive units were combined with non-Shimano cranks cause the axle to crack and eventually fail would if... My saddle bag bouncing around this bike bars on the new version is so much see how much it! Shimano 's app you can dial it in to your preferences app, youll want to use Shimano.